Palm Hiring Linux Engineers

[samkim]

Rome mentioned in another thread that Palm has been hiring Linux engineers and programmers. Here's some evidence to support that.

I did a search on Palm's job database for "Linux" and came up with 16 jobs. Some list Linux pretty innocently along with Windows and Mac experience; others explicitly require Linux programming knowledge.

Some excerpts from the job descriptions:
"As a Linux Engineer, you will play a key role in the architecture, design and implementation of enabling technologies for a new generation of Palm devices."

"Extensive knowledge of standard Linux tools"

"A minimum of 1 year of development experience with PalmOS, PocketPC, embedded Linux, or other small-footprint, mobile, power-conscious devices"

"Significant project experience developing software for Palm OS, UNIX/Linux, or similar embedded platforms; knowledge of broad areas of software technology."

"Palm, Inc. is looking for a motivated Software Engineer in charge of testing
Linux device drivers and possibly drivers for other platforms such as Palm OS."There's one obvious explanation - that Palm will be producing a Cobalt/Linux Treo. Are there other possible explanations that I'm missing?

[Perry Holden]

I beleive.

[phurth]

Maybe they want to actually make it so their new Windows Mobile Treos can talk to Mac OS machines, which everyone knows are just prettied-up BSD UNIX boxen.

Kidding - this actually brings hope to those who want to see a Palm Linux device!

[JackNaylorPE]

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6177

"The hints that you'll have some kind of Linux running in the Palm of your hand are stronger and more credible than the hints we got a year and a half ago that a Windows Treo would be coming down the pike. For one thing, the anonymous sources that first informed CNET that Palm was exploring Windows Mobile (correctly as we now know) also reported that similar research was being undertaken into Linux. That leaked out in November of 2004, a month before we learned that PalmSource was acquiring China MobileSoft and charting a Linux future for the Palm OS. Was Palm getting ready for PalmSource's "Palm OS for Linux," or were they looking for other "partnerships" (CNET's word) to build their own Linux alternative? Difficult to say, and after all, these "sources" only were talking about research, not actual products.

More telling are the job openings at Palm over the last 7 months (as far back as I've been watching). In September of last year Palm had openings for 17 Linux engineers on their web site. Today there are 21 positions (16 in engineering) that specifically mention Linux experience as a qualification."

[GreenHex]

The future is quiet bleak for PalmOS (never a mainstream player) and
Symbian (But for Stupid Nokia, it would have met with a well deserved,
early death). The shakeout is currently between WM, Linux, Symbian
and PalmOS. It is anybody's guess who will win.

- mvk

PS: I guess the {700|750|800}{p|i|l} is delayed because of the Linux angle...

[JackNaylorPE]

Why does there have to be a winner ? I have 30 car companies I can buy from 4 hard drive companies, 2 major CPU companies, oodles of memory, optical drive manufacturers....i certainly hope the number stays bigger than 3.

[GreenHex]

Why does there have to be a winner?
We could get into a discussion on this, but my point was that some OSs - for
various reasons - will need to be left behind. The future appears to be that of
WM and maybe Linux. The ones that may be left behind are PalmOS and
Symbian... Proprietary phone OS's wil be around, of-course.

I believe that Nokia (Symbian) too is flirting with Linux...

- mvk

Winning - no good, Competition - good!

[Wexx]

Linux will never die. At least it will stay as an alternative for manufactures and they will at least sometimes use it. WM is a big favourite. Symbian will have its share but will stay as a replacement for the ordinary proprietary OSes. In smartphones WM won't win over Symbian untill the interface is improved and XPfied (i mean adding some nice looking elements). PalmOS hasn't future on its own because it is very limited in many ways. One example are terrible problems with localisation. They aren't solveable until the OS is built with unicode in mind. That is also the reason why it never got popular outside North America and western Europe. Linux kernel might solve this. But I think the best way is real Linux distribution working as ordinary Linux on PCs. It would run many programs from PC and features will be maximal.

[DocGo]

I don't think Symbian is all that bad...especially Symbian UIQ operating system (like the one in Sony Ericsson P910 and soon to be released P990). I have played with a P910 and it is a very solid OS. In fact, it does better especially with apps that you install in the memory card. Very smooth interface.
I don't like the other Symbian OS (series 60, 90 which Nokia is using) but UIQ is good and stable.

[ronbo2000]

<merged>

[ButtUglyJeff]

The future is quiet bleak for PalmOS (never a mainstream player) and
Symbian (But for Stupid Nokia, it would have met with a well deserved,
early death). The shakeout is currently between WM, Linux, Symbian
and PalmOS. It is anybody's guess who will win.

- mvk

PS: I guess the {700|750|800}{p|i|l} is delayed because of the Linux angle...

You know Linux can be easily given a PalmOS feel...............

[KStewart]

The future is quiet bleak for PalmOS (never a mainstream player) and
Symbian (But for Stupid Nokia, it would have met with a well deserved,
early death). The shakeout is currently between WM, Linux, Symbian
and PalmOS. It is anybody's guess who will win.

- mvk

PS: I guess the {700|750|800}{p|i|l} is delayed because of the Linux angle...

WM... :evil:

[bigboy650]

Honestly, who's to say we will ever see a Treo with ALP? According to all that was mentioned earlier, the POS as we know it may fail to exist, but it is entirely possible that Palm itself is flirting with their own Linux based device. Could this be the "New POS"?

This would mean that they have been working on this a lot longer than we originally thought and could mean that devices could surface quite a bit sooner.

On a side note, if I have ever heard of someone who fits the bill on those employment ads, it's you Shadow ;-)

[GreenHex]

This would mean that they have been working on this a lot longer than we originally thought and could mean that devices could surface quite a bit sooner.
And with new bugs (and resetting techniques) firmly in place. - mvk

[JackNaylorPE]

Honestly, who's to say we will ever see a Treo with ALP? According to all that was mentioned earlier, the POS as we know it may fail to exist, but it is entirely possible that Palm itself is flirting with their own Linux based device. Could this be the "New POS"?

That's kinda the point of the article in message 4.

her's a bit more as I don't wanan 'steal" the whole article:

""New generation"... "overall system team"... "new software platform"... it does sound unmistakably like Palm is working on their own Linux platform. The job title uses the word "handset", implying that this platform might be intended for a future Treo line, but this conclusion might be undercut by a qualification later in the posting that specifies only "handheld" device experience being a plus (implying that telephony might not be part of the plan for this platform after all). I overanalyze, but you start to get the picture.

There are at least four possible interpretations I could make of this:

1. Palm is preparing a full-blown Linux-based version of Palm OS that they can continue to give the Palm name to and have complete control over.
2. This is part of the still-secret "Third Business" that Jeff Hawkins says Palm is cooking up. We don't know much about what this new category of device might be, but it might be a different enough animal that Palm would not consider using Palm OS or ALP. No news about this new product line, but for what it's worth, it got mention in the news again yesterday.
3. Palm is working in tandem with ACCESS and PalmSource to deliver their own user experience and applications on top of the evolving ALP platform, much as they did for previous versions of Palm OS. I'm doubtful that ACCESS would let a licensee--even Palm--be part of the actual design and building of the platform itself, but perhaps Palm might be given permission to replace the Garnet emulator in ALP with an emulator that runs an updated Palm OS.
4. Recognizing that the aging Palm OS Garnet is not going to satisfy their customers for two years until an ALP Treo can be released, they are developing a stop-gap system to buy themselves time. A simple solution: develop something like ALP but without all the extra APIs: just the Palm OS emulator and a few critical native Linux apps like the browser, email, phone, and messaging clients that could run in their own processes to improve the multitasking capability of the platform."

[dstrauss]

Jack:

That is a good analysis of the tea leaves, but with one issue:

WHY?

Why bother with all of that when you have M$oft spending all the money to develop WM for them. Why not just further refine the one-handed operation of Palm-like programs on the "W" devices, and throw in a 320x320 or 480x480 screen and just say adiós to PalmOS.

What corporate value do they really generate by continuing to prop up PalmOS in the smartphone space? Are they afraid M$soft will disappear?

[JackNaylorPE]

Why ? cause many of us wil not purchase a WM phone....the 700 just has too many compromises for my taste. Look at the ALP thread, it runs 10 to 1 for POS over WM5.

While trade and business mags (Business Week, WSJ, PC mag, etc) have reported the 700w as the best WM5 device ever, they still say it pales next to the 650.

See more here:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6192

Palm has been working on Linux since 2004......2 years later and they are still hiring Linux engineers. I have a better question why take a group of in excess of 20 people and pay them for multiple years at a cost of over $2 million per year ?????

As for MS, let's remember that Symbian still owns 80% of the smartphone market so MS is by no means the dominant player. Other reasons, :

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/5064.html

Windows made its game being more nimble and outmanuevering IBM .... now it is IBM. Even tho they escaped punishment in the trial, they still walked away hampered. They can't squeeze competitors anymore like the "DOS & Windows is $29.95 OEM and Windows alone is $44.95" thing to squash competitors like DRDOS. It can't offer exclusivity agreements. It has to win in the market alone and their invincubility has been shattered.

Whether they have switched to firefox yet is talked about in old ladies book clubs. ExtremeTech reports that various Linux flavors install faster and easier than XP. We are entering the age of the $150 PC. Windows can't fit in that niche.

MS has to concentrate on keeping the desktop. It has benefited from hardware performance increasing at rate much faster than software. each new OS has been substantially sklower than the alst on the same hardware. The machine you built just 1 year ago with that $299 128 MB vid card meets the min requirements to run Vista. In the phone market however, where size matters, hardware limits have a real impact on the user experience.

The future of WM on the Treo will depnd on the inevitable comparisons come May. If the tarde mags are recommending the 650 over the 700, what do you think will happen with the 700p on the scene ? Even if they were a dead heat, I gotta belive that the 700p will kick butt in consumer sales based solely on the fact that the data plan is $360 cheaper per year.

[dstrauss]

Why ? cause many of us wil never own a WM phone....the 700 just has too many compromises for my tatse.

See more here:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6192

Palm has been working on Linux since 2004......2 years later and they are still hiring Linux engineers. I have a better question why take a group of in excess of 20 people and pay them for multiple years at a cost of over $2 million per year ?????

As for MS, let's rememebr that Symbian still owns 80% of the smartphone market so MS is by no means the dominant player. other reasons, :

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/5064.html
Jack -

I realize that Symbian is the 800 pound gorilla, and that there is a legion of M$oft haters that will only think Palm - but how much of that is Palm's core business? If $2,000,000 per year for a Linux stop-gap is so unreasonable, why should they shoulder the burden of programming one OS (a Palm wannabe) and working interface/drivers on another (WM)?

Why not just overcome those compromises you (and others) don't like in WM5 with interface software they already work on the two different platforms? Why continue to fight (and finance) a fight that gets you VERY LITTLE bang for the buck?

I am not a M$oft lover (even though I have gone to the dark side with a Cingular 8125, primarily for WiFi and better keyboard). However, stacking Palm ease of use on the WM5 operating system gets them the multi-tasking of Linux WITHOUT the investment of juggling both OSes. Just makes sense to me.

I'm willing to bet the "Never WM" crowd is a drop in thebucket, and besides, where else are the Treo lovers going to go if they drop PalmOS but keep the Treo form factor with tweaked WM5 software?

[JackNaylorPE]

There's an interview with Donna Dubinsky and Jeff Hawkins for the 10 year anniversary of the 1st Palm device. Where they answer a question regarding the next 10 years they answer talking about Palm products "on multiple platforms". So if windows is to eb th eonly one, what's the plural from doing in that sentence ?

There's another article on "The Zen of Palm" which I think is the core reason palm loyalists exists. I posted the links in Treo Chat section.

[dstrauss]

There's an interview with Donna Dubinsky and Jeff Hawkins for the 10 year anniversary of the 1st Palm device. Where they answer a question regarding the next 10 years they answer talking about Palm products "on multiple platforms". So if windows is to eb th eonly one, what's the plural from doing in that sentence ?

There's another article on "The Zen of Palm" which I think is the core reason palm loyalists exists. I posted the links in Treo Chat section.
"Palm products" is the key phrase. It may live on in a PDA/Multi-media device environment, but that doesn't control the smartphone space.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, because I definitely do not have gharrod's all seeing eye.

[surur]

dstrauss, the Treo's success is much more emotional than rational. If Palm suddenly switched over to 100% WM their sales would drop 75% at least. Look at how long Sony lovers hung on to their clie's.

Outside of USA there is no such attachment, which is why WM outsells POS 2:1 at least (going on to 3:1). There MS has to struggle against the brand loyalty of Sony Ericsson and Nokia. They are making slow progress however, primarily by appealing to carriers, and word of mouth by geeks/business users who love powerful devices.

Surur

[dstrauss]

dstrauss, the Treo's success is much more emotional than rational. If Palm suddenly switched over to 100% WM their sales would drop 75% at least. Look at how long Sony lovers hung on to their clie's.

Outside of USA there is no such attachment, which is why WM outsells POS 2:1 at least (going on to 3:1). There MS has to struggle against the brand loyalty of Sony Ericsson and Nokia. They are making slow progress however, primarily by appealing to carriers, and word of mouth by geeks/business users who love powerful devices.

Surur
I still have trouble believing their success in the smartphone space is OS driven to the extent of 75%. They were the first real smartphones (Samsung i300, 330, i500; Kyocera ???; Treo 180, 270, 300, 600, 650) while WM and Symbian were basically nowhere devices. However, MANY of the Treo users I've known, like past Pam PDA users, had no idea there was third party loadable software out there. That was for us Treocental hugging geeks who were willing to fight the OS file system ad nauseum and put up with third party loader programs to run programs from the SD cards. Talk about a throwback to EMM and 386 harware.:mad:

If it looks like a Treo and runs Windows, I don't think anyone but us diehards on Treocentral will rail about it. I could very well be wrong, but I still say it makes NO economic sense for them to dual track development the way they are doing just to placate us diehards.

PARTICULARLY, when the rumored Hollywood may blow the doors off their Treo sales. Who wouldn't want a Treo without the antennae that's thinner, narrower, and lighter (hopefully with some real memory).

[surur]

Whatever the wisdom of it is, the job listings speak for themselves. They plan to (re)write PIM's, browsers, e-mail clients etc.

Smartphone Browser Software Engineer Job code: 334
Job Category: Engineering

Job Description:

Duties/Responsibilities:

Design and implement the wireless web browser for our future smartphone and handheld products

Help invent new ways to improve the performance and layout of web content on mobile devices

Work collaboratively with a multidisciplinary team to successfully take the software through the entire development cycle (design, implementation, maintenance)

Help define and implement web-based and other applications and technologies for our mobile devices

Respond to customer and developer issues inside and outside of the company, troubleshoot problems, and respond with recommendations, patches or upgrades as appropriate


Qualifications:

2+ years of software engineering experience desired


Skills/Experience:

Experience in several software projects from design through delivery; demonstrated design skills; proficient C and C++ coding and debugging skills, good problem solving skills

Project experience designing and implementing software user interfaces

Knowledge of markup languages and data transport protocols, such as HTML, CSS, Javascript, WML, XHTML, DHTML, XML, TCP/IP, HTTP, and SSL

Demonstrated success working in collaborative team projects

Excellent communication skills, both verbal and written

Significant project experience developing software for Palm OS, UNIX/Linux, or similar embedded platforms; knowledge of broad areas of software technology

Experience with network communications application development, specifically web browsers, messaging (mail, SMS, IM), voice applications or camera (imaging) applications


Education:

B.S. in Computer Science, or equivalent
http://www.maxhire.net/clients/MH160/jobsearch_detail.asp?reference=334

Software Engineer, Email Applications Job code: 957
Job Category: Engineering

Job Description:
Title:

Software Engineer


Overview:

The successful candidate will play a key role in the development of groupware application products for Palm Inc.'s handheld and smartphone devices. Work as part of a team to develop and maintain Email applications. Candidate will be actively involved in all aspects of the software development lifecycle.


Duties/Responsibilities:

Develop and improve existing features in Email application. Take existing designs and create elegant and robust implementation.

Debug existing features to improve overall product quality.

Using User Centric Design principles, identify opportunities to improve the overall usability of the application.

Grow into a role that will utilize marketing requirements to define, design and implement new product capabilities.


Qualifications:

2-5 years of software product development experience.
Experience with producing consumer based applications, especially email a plus.
Experience with Palm OS a plus
Experience with Linux a plus.

Skills/Experience:

- Experience in product development
- C and C++ coding and debugging skills
- Proven problem solving skills.
- Proven object oriented analysis and coding skills.
- Demonstrated success working in collaborative team projects.
- Excellent communication skills, both verbal and written with the ability to communicate technical concepts clearly and effectively across multiple organizations
- Demonstrated commitment to quality.


Education:

B.S. in Computer Science, or equivalent
http://www.maxhire.net/clients/MH160/jobsearch_detail.asp?reference=957
Sounds like a brief to port existing software to another (linux) platform.

They are certainly ambition, which may mean slippage.

Surur

[gfunkmagic]

Rome mentioned in another thread that Palm has been hiring Linux engineers and programmers. Here's some evidence to support that.

I did a search on Palm's job database for "Linux" and came up with 16 jobs. Some list Linux pretty innocently along with Windows and Mac experience; others explicitly require Linux programming knowledge.

Some excerpts from the job descriptions:
There's one obvious explanation - that Palm will be producing a Cobalt/Linux Treo. Are there other possible explanations that I'm missing?



I don't think Palm is EVER going to release it's own Linux distro for pda's...not gonna happen. Palm is simply hiring Linux devs in anticipation for ALP, that's all. Since Palm is a hardware OEM, it must write all it's own linux drivers etc like any other OEM. That is why there are hiring Linux devs...

[surur]

Unlikely, as that is not what they are advertising for. They are advertising for apps writers, not driver writers.

Surur

[samkim]

Unlikely, as that is not what they are advertising for. They are advertising for apps writers, not driver writers.

Surur
Palm Inc. develops a lot of its own apps for its Treos - phone, IM, camera, MMS, et al.

So if they release a Treo based on ALP, they need Linux app developers.

[gfunkmagic]

Unlikely, as that is not what they are advertising for. They are advertising for apps writers, not driver writers.

Surur

Do you realize how much of the code on the Treo is customized by Palm including the camera app, versamail, carrier customizations, wireless stacks etc? All of this and more will probably have to be re-written by Palm for either max or GTK+ (probably the latter) in anticipation for ALP.

[surur]

Then they might as well do it all themselves. Think about it. The kernel is free, they dont need Access to get that. According to you they will need to write their own drivers. Again, Access wont help them with that. Now they are writing their own e-mail, messaging and web browser. They already have a 68k emulator. What exactly do they need Access for again? Add to this that there is no developer kit yet for ALP, what exactly will these developers be writing to?

Sorry, there is only one logical interpretation. Palm is doing their own PalmLinux, ALP be damned.

Surur

[gfunkmagic]

Then they might as well do it all themselves. Think about it. The kernel is free, they dont need Access to get that. According to you they will need to write their own drivers. Again, Access wont help them with that. Now they are writing their own e-mail, messaging and web browser. They already have a 68k emulator. What exactly do they need Access for again? Add to this that there is no developer kit yet for ALP, what exactly will these developers be writing to?

Sorry, there is only one logical interpretation. Palm is doing their own PalmLinux, ALP be damned.

Surur

Aren't you over reaching a bit? :rolleyes: If Palm has already done so much customization on FrankenGarnet, why not also on ALP? Also, have proprietary bundled email client and camera app is FAR FAR different that creating your own RTOS!! :rolleyes:

The truth is Palm is NOT going to create their own version of mobile Linux distro, nor are they going to forever cling to dying FrankenGarnet like some delusional folks like JK etc believe. The 700p and Lowrider will probably be the last FrankenGarnet (at least hopefully) Treos that Palm ever releases. The others will all be WM. Whether there will be FrankenGarnet TX2 or LD2 is debatleable but probable. Palm will use this ancient POS (pun intended) until 2007 when ALP will finally be launched. IF that does NOT happen, then that means ALP failed and end of story... THEN, and only then imo could there be a possibility of a proprieatary OS from Palm other than ALP or WM. But that is a far and long time away...

[surur]

I dont see why not. Shadowmite already has Linux GPE (http://gpe.handhelds.org/) running on his Treo, and that is blind, without the hardware specs. Do you really think it would be such a struggle to get a functional Linux distribution for PalmOS?

Also, what does Palm gain from going with ALP? They will end up paying a big license fee ($20 -50 000 000 /year) for something which they could have gotten essentially royalty free. On top of that they would be facilitating the broadening of the POS platform with other licensees, which does not help them one bit. Why should they support their competitors.

Sorry Gfunk. You need to explain why its a better idea for Palm, Inc. to wait for ALP than to take matters in their own hands. I can certainly give you 10 reasons why its better they go their own way.

Surur

[JackNaylorPE]

Then they might as well do it all themselves. Think about it. The kernel is free, they dont need Access to get that. According to you they will need to write their own drivers. Again, Access wont help them with that. Now they are writing their own e-mail, messaging and web browser. They already have a 68k emulator. What exactly do they need Access for again? Add to this that there is no developer kit yet for ALP, what exactly will these developers be writing to?

Sorry, there is only one logical interpretation. Palm is doing their own PalmLinux, ALP be damned.

Surur

A well reasoned conclusion, the only thing I wonder is if they are gonna use this as a hammer to say "well we'll take your ALP but only at $12 a unit....otehrwise we use our own."

[gfunkmagic]

I dont see why not. Shadowmite already has Linux GPE (http://gpe.handhelds.org/) running on his Treo, and that is blind, without the hardware specs. Do you really think it would be such a struggle to get a functional Linux distribution for PalmOS?


Sorry, but imo you got to be retarded to think having a bunch of enthusiasts porting GPE onto the Treo is equivalent to producing a full fledged, stable and thorough OS with broad platform and backward compatibility. :rolleyes: I'm sure PalmSource engineers probably had proof concept palm-linux working on early on, but that is FAR FAR different than releasing a commercial grade OS to market...puleeaze.....

Seriously, I don't know what you guys are smoking. You've been reading too much VOR, pikesoft, etc over at PIC probably I dunno...

[Rome]

dstrauss, the Treo's success is much more emotional than rational. If Palm suddenly switched over to 100% WM their sales would drop 75% at least. Look at how long Sony lovers hung on to their clie's.

Outside of USA there is no such attachment, which is why WM outsells POS 2:1 at least (going on to 3:1). There MS has to struggle against the brand loyalty of Sony Ericsson and Nokia. They are making slow progress however, primarily by appealing to carriers, and word of mouth by geeks/business users who love powerful devices.

Surur

emotional??? That's a first, even for you, surur. Using your logic, I guess I can conclude that Nokia's success with symbian smartphone in Europe must be of the emotional nature as well, since there is no such emtional attachment for symbian here in the U.S..

[surur]

emotional??? That's a first, even for you, surur. Using your logic, I guess I can conclude that Nokia's success with symbian smartphone in Europe must be of the emotional nature as well, since there is no such emtional attachment for symbian here in the U.S..

Yep, its all Nokia brand. Symbian shipped 31 million devices this year, yet they only have 5500 software tittles on Handango. Their latest move (S60 v3) completely destroyed compatibility with all their old software, needing a full re-compile. Do you think a proper platform could get away with that? Nokia shipped 265 million phones in 2005. The 28 million Symbian phones (90% of the Symbian total) they shipped was just scum lifted by the wave. If Nokia wasn't in the game POS would outship Symbian.

Answer your question?

Surur

[bigboy650]

They will end up paying a big license fee ($20 -50,000,000 /year)

Not to play devil's advocate, but where did you get the info on licensing costs? I was curious how much it costs them...

You can pay a LOT of software engineers for that amount...and pocket the difference. If I was Ed Colligan, I'd have a team on it checking the feasibility of it (if he hasn't already) Though it is odd that they spun off the OS in the first place if this was the ultimate goal, it seems they could have saved themselves a lot of money...I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

:confused:

[surur]

When Palm renewed their PalmOS license in 2005 till 2009, this was the deal.

PalmSource will receive minimum royalty commitments of $148.5 million and source code license fees in the amount of $3.2 million over the remaining course of the contract as follows. The minimum annual royalty commitments for the contract years ending December 3, 2005 and 2006 remain unchanged from the Prior Agreement at $41.0 million and $42.5 million, respectively. The minimum annual royalty commitments under the extended term of the SARSLA for the contract years ending December 3, 2007, 2008 and 2009 are $35 million, $20 million and $10 million, respectively, subject to the Company meeting certain development milestones.

Thats $148.5 million between 2005 and 2009. Thats nearly $30 million/year. The cost of the license decreases as POS obviously depreciates with age. However for a new ALP license, especially if the Treo is very popular, they will obviously charge more again.

If Palm goes for a per device license, and they sell 5 million Treo's, at a conservative $10 per device, thats still $50 million/year. Even at half that its still $25 million/year.If they own the OS they save that money. Thats the salary of a few hundred Linux hackers/year (and many more in Asia ;) ).

Symbian currently charges $7.50 / device for the first 2 million devices, and then $5/device after this. Even under that license Palm would have to pay $30 million for 5 million Treo's/year. Nokia is estimated to have paid Symbian $140 million in 2005. Thats up from $55 million the year before. Why do you think the Nokia 770 is Linux? If that experiment succeeds they could drop Symbian like a hot potato. I believe Microsoft charges between $12-16/device, but then you get components you have to license separately included, such as a web browser (blazer in POS), media player (Ptunes in POS) and Office Suite (Docs to Go).

License fees for the OS is obviously a major cost for OEM's, which the real reason why Linux is such a threat to the various closed mobile OS's. PalmSource (before acquisition) has 518 employees. Palm has 700+, 80% programmers. If PalmSource can pull it off, so can Palm. The original creators of PalmOS are on their payroll, for heaven's sake. Pur-leeze indeed. Its funny, but I dont find Gfunk's argument (or lack of it) convincing.

Surur

[Rome]

Yep, its all Nokia brand. Symbian shipped 31 million devices this year, yet they only have 5500 software tittles on Handango. Their latest move (S60 v3) completely destroyed compatibility with all their old software, needing a full re-compile. Do you think a proper platform could get away with that? Nokia shipped 265 million phones in 2005. The 28 million Symbian phones (90% of the Symbian total) they shipped was just scum lifted by the wave. If Nokia wasn't in the game POS would outship Symbian.

Answer your question?

Surur

No sure if you answered anything, other than giving me a lot of stats that prove nothing. You are telling me that millions of people out there are buying Palm OS and Symbian purely on emotion, while majority of people who buy WM devices are buying them with logic and reasons???

How about Blackberries? They have the fewest third-party software support, but corporations love them. Did all the IT departments buy them on emotion as well?

[surur]

Rome, I cant be blamed for your inability to draw inference from the data presented. Its simple, these phones are not being bought to use as smartphones. If they were the >50 million devices out there would support a much larger ecosystem than 5500 apps. They are being bought as nice dumb phones.

Blackberries are just big two way pagers. They obviously work very well at this, but then most two way pagers do.

My thesis is simple:- Branding is very important. Do you disagree?

Treo PalmOS - loyalty, simple, ease of use, reliability (damaged a lot recently), American, underdog, Zen
Nokia - huge, reliable, good quality, safe.
WM - Powerful, flexible, cutting edge, works well with windows, has MS behind it.

I prefer a brand which encourages technical innovation. That way I get my tech fix years before POS users.

Surur

[GreenHex]

You know Linux can be easily given a PalmOS feel...............
I'm sure it can be done - and easily at that - but if we go by our
experiences with Linux for the desktop PC you'll know how pathetic,
stupid, miserable, pitiable, ridiculous, silly, unnatural, artificial,
grotesque and contemptible (that's my BDicty at work) the attempts
to mimic the Windows look-and-feel are.

It'll all be slow to begin with of-course.

Then there will be "holes" in the user interface from where one can
catch unpleasant glimpses of the Linux innards at work.

I feel that Linux by itself can have an interface that is both pleasing,
robust and natural without having to mimic PalmOS.

- mvk

[Rome]

Rome, I cant be blamed for your inability to draw inference from the data presented. Its simple, these phones are not being bought to use as smartphones. If they were the >50 million devices out there would support a much larger ecosystem than 5500 apps. They are being bought as nice dumb phones.

Blackberries are just big two way pagers. They obviously work very well at this, but then most two way pagers do.

My thesis is simple:- Branding is very important. Do you disagree?

Treo PalmOS - loyalty, simple, ease of use, reliability (damaged a lot recently), American, underdog, Zen
Nokia - huge, reliable, good quality, safe.
WM - Powerful, flexible, cutting edge, works well with windows, has MS behind it.

I prefer a brand which encourages technical innovation. That way I get my tech fix years before POS users.

Surur

Really??? You data mean nothing to most people except for a Microsoft fan boy. Let me try to understand your logic here:

- The winning smartphone platform must have a lot of third-party software.
- The smartphone platform with the largest number of third-party software will win
- More features equal to technological leadership, which will turn into market leadership
- Smartphone buyers who bought an OS platform that has fewer third-party software than MW must be using their smartphones as dumb phones.
- Since BB has the fewest third party software among all the major platforms, BB is, therefore, nothing but a two-way pager.

There is nothing wrong this logic, except that it is the "PC" logic. You are making the assumption that the smartphone market will evolve just like the PC market did 20 years. I guess you don't think outside the box much, do you? I see the future differently. My smartphone future consists of many different platforms, many different form factors, and many different vendors. The one-platform PC era is over, my friend. Microsoft will not be able to monopolize the smart device market like it did to the PC market. Only time will tell who is right on this.

As for your branding thesis, I was not impressed either. First, you were comparing apples to oranges....you compared a hardware's software brand (Treo Palm OS) to a hardware brand (Nokia) and then to a pure software brand (WM). So which branding is it? Hardware or software? Second, branding is certainly very important but it is not everything. A brand without the right product means absolutely nothing. Case in point – Disney…strong brand in the animated picture market but has not come out with a hit in ages, and that's why they had to buy Pixar.

Last but certainly not the least; let's look at the leading smartphone platforms in various geographies around the world:

Asia - Linux
North America - Palm or Blackberry, your pick
Europe - Symbian

No emotion here, just the facts.

[surur]

Really??? You data mean nothing to most people except for a Microsoft fan boy. Let me try to understand your logic here:

- The winning smartphone platform must have a lot of third-party software.
- The smartphone platform with the largest number of third-party software will win
- More features equal to technological leadership, which will turn into market leadership
- Smartphone buyers who bought an OS platform that has fewer third-party software than MW must be using their smartphones as dumb phones.
- Since BB has the fewest third party software among all the major platforms, BB is, therefore, nothing but a two-way pager.

Rome, you are completely projecting.

- The winning smartphone platform must have a lot of third-party software.
Where did I say that? Symbian outsells everyone else combined, yet they have less software.

The smartphone thats used as a smartphone will have more software.

- The smartphone platform with the largest number of third-party software will win

Again, clearly not the case. What I said was a large number of apps means the device is being used as a smartphone.

- More features equal to technological leadership, which will turn into market leadership
Again, market leadership is clearly completely independent of anything else except branding and marketing.

- Smartphone buyers who bought an OS platform that has fewer third-party software than WM must be using their smartphones as dumb phones.
This is the ONE spot where you have me right. When you buy into a limited platform, its mostly because you do not intend to you your device as a smartphone. I did not say everyone, but this applies to the majority.

- Since BB has the fewest third party software among all the major platforms, BB is, therefore, nothing but a two-way pager.
Nearly right. Since it has the least software, most of its users use it as a two way pager only.

... but way to put words in other people's mouths.

Surur

[Hargoth]

And one comment on Branding:

Only the young and/or inexperienced will by Microsoft products by brand.

1. Lack of knowledge of MS corporate history.
2. Lack of knowledge of MS corporate strategies.
3. Lack of technical expertise in the underpinnings of all MS OS platforms as they compare to former, current, and future competitors and aternatives.
4. Lack of experience in MS programming policies and practices. (yes, I have seen and helped port a MS OS)

There are others, but the point being: Lack of experience with MS is the only assurance that the MS brand has any draw to consumers.

Therefore, experience with MS products destroys its brand name.

Some are required to use MS products under threat of job security.
Some are required to use MS products because other corporate vendors (think ISVs) are also 'locked in' and simply cannot provide applications and services to other platforms.

But by far, the most common purchase of MS products are outside of the consumer's control, and have nothing at all to do with marketing, branding, or desirability. It is simply impossible for an inexperienced consumer to purchase technology without paying the 'Microsoft Tax'. It is assumed.

This simple fact alone should have caused the 'Boston tea party' equivalent in technology many years ago. It has not happened due to ignorance.

So please, it does you no service to hold up the MS banner as desirable. The very opposite is true, and any technical savvy person should know better.

Let Freedom ring!

[dstrauss]

Hargoth:

The sixties are over. Enough with the Apple stump speeches. You can't storm the ramparts forever.

M$oft is a bully, (you can even call them the imperial storm troopers if you like) but face it, they have set the standard, and it doesn't matter how they got there. XP is their most solid effort to date, MS Server 2003 has been up and running for us since first release, and anything that interconnects with its infrastructure is much easier to sell and support than the open source rebellion.

I don't like M$oft much either, but this "to know them is to hate them" attitude is unfair to folks posting their various opinions around here, right, wrong, or indifferent.

:soap:

[surur]

Therefore, experience with MS products destroys its brand name.

Some are required to use MS products under threat of job security.
Some are required to use MS products because other corporate vendors (think ISVs) are also 'locked in' and simply cannot provide applications and services to other platforms.

But by far, the most common purchase of MS products are outside of the consumer's control, and have nothing at all to do with marketing, branding, or desirability. It is simply impossible for an inexperienced consumer to purchase technology without paying the 'Microsoft Tax'. It is assumed.

This simple fact alone should have caused the 'Boston tea party' equivalent in technology many years ago. It has not happened due to ignorance.

Wow! I would hate it if my boss bought me a HTC Startrek (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=nl_en&trurl=http://www.pocketinfo.nl/artikel/5499). And if my corp offers to buy me a x-box 360, I would have to say no, except I might lose my job if I refuse this Microsoft tax. And everyone knows coding in Visual Studio 2005 is just way too easy. A real man uses the command line!

I guess thats why the Microsoft brand is worth only $59 billion (http://www.ourfishbowl.com/images/press_releases/pressrelease_bgb2005.pdf), second only to Coca Cola, and ahead of IBM. They better change their name ASAP, to get away from all the bad associations.

Surur

[gharrod]

Since ALPS is linux why would this be any mystery??

[surur]

Because Palm has been hiring since last year already, and Access will not deliver any API's to code against till earliest end 2006. What are these coders doing between now and then?

Surur

[Rome]

Since it has the least software, most of its users use it as a two way pager only.
Surur

Ok, I will use your words only then.

For all your BB users out there, please raise your hand if you use your BB as a two-way pager only. Or, surur, do you consider push emails just like those technologically ancient two-way pages?

[gharrod]

interfacing with the ALPS group so they will have a clue. Good grief do you think they just hire people on a moments notice? They have a lot of Palm customization to do and the graphical front end I am betting is going to belong to Palm. The business I am in a lot of things take 18+ months to go through all the testing, then remember they have to get this all by the FCC eventually. Sorry if I sound grumpy but ths is what I call "mice nuts." Think about it.

[surur]

gharrod, so you are of the opinion that Palm and Access are collaborating on ALP? Thats not the impression most people have (http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=8853).

And Rome, yes, Blackberries are glorified two way pagers. Why do you think your boss wants you to have one? To listen to your MP3's? Hell, they dont even allow removable storage!

Surur

[gharrod]

Access bought PalmSource and Palm has an agreement with them for their operating system. Access is developing a linux back end and Palm devices will have that with a Palm OS look-alike front end. There will be an emulator to run existing Palm OS apps.

If I am wrong please someone correct me. Palm has has press releases on this issue.

[surur]

There is no Palm press release. If you have a link I would like to see it. Palm's only contract with Access is for Garnet which expires 2009.

Access is building a whole new OS, to sell to Asian carriers, especially NTT DoCoMo, who is their third largest shareholder and who recently invested $ 128 million in the company. They are building a new UI based on Rome, the smartphone UI. It will probably have 2 soft keys, and will be designed to work with or without a touch screen. They have dumped the whole Cobalt legacy. They will include a POS emulator, but will also be able to run Java and straight GTK+ Linux software. There will be a unified launcher, and a browser based home screen (kind of like a today screen, but based on web technologies). They make a big thing of exposing multi-tasking well, which I assume will mean a taskbar of some kind.

Have a read here. No-one knows what ALP will look like but many many people dont see it as the growth path from Garnet.

http://www.access.co.jp/images/WP_ALP_FINAL.pdf

Surur

[dutchtrumpet]

Access bought PalmSource and Palm has an agreement with them for their operating system. Access is developing a linux back end and Palm devices will have that with a Palm OS look-alike front end. There will be an emulator to run existing Palm OS apps.

If I am wrong please someone correct me. Palm has has press releases on this issue.
You are correct...they commited to being customers of Acces until 2010 or something like that if I recall.

[Rome]

And Rome, yes, Blackberries are glorified two way pagers. Why do you think your boss wants you to have one? To listen to your MP3's? Hell, they dont even allow removable storage!

Surur

Ok, then, ask yourself this - why did it talke so long for the mighty microsoft to come out with its push email technology? especially when push email is no more than "glorified" two-way page. As of today, Microsoft's push email solution is still not widely available. And by many accounts, it is still not as elegant a push email solution as the RIM solution.

And here are your own words:

WM - Powerful, flexible, cutting edge, works well with windows, has MS behind it.

Allow me to rephrase - how could such a powerful, flexible, cutting edge brand fall so far behind such simple technology like a "glorified" two-way page?

And shall we talk about the delay of Vista while we are at it...

[surur]

Rome, has it occurred to you blackberry does push well because they started by working on specialized networks (like pagers) and only very much later moved on to IP based networks? And that they work in conjunction with service providers and their own NOC? I recall similar Palm based info system (palm VII) which did not do half as well. If Palm actually executed they could have been where RIM is now. Instead they will be implementing MS's solution in a few months.

Surur

[gharrod]

There is no Palm press release. If you have a link I would like to see it. Palm's only contract with Access is for Garnet which expires 2009.

Access is building a whole new OS, to sell to Asian carriers, especially NTT DoCoMo, who is their third largest shareholder and who recently invested $ 128 million in the company. They are building a new UI based on Rome, the smartphone UI. It will probably have 2 soft keys, and will be designed to work with or without a touch screen. They have dumped the whole Cobalt legacy. They will include a POS emulator, but will also be able to run Java and straight GTK+ Linux software. There will be a unified launcher, and a browser based home screen (kind of like a today screen, but based on web technologies). They make a big thing of exposing multi-tasking well, which I assume will mean a taskbar of some kind.

Have a read here. No-one knows what ALP will look like but many many people dont see it as the growth path from Garnet.

http://www.access.co.jp/images/WP_ALP_FINAL.pdf

Surur

Here is the link to the press release. One small correction is was Access/Palmsource which put the release out. It waqs reporteed about everywhere and a huge point of discussion in the threads.

http://www.access.co.jp/english/press/060214.html

[surur]

Thats the whole point. Palm has not endorsed Access in any way, and have not given any clues that indicate they will upgrade to it. At the same time they are hiring Linux developers to write PIM clients and web browsers (which would be included in ALP if they were going to use it). To re-purpose an old saying, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for for free? Why pay tens of millions in license fees to Access when they can make their own solution?

Surur

[JackNaylorPE]

Here is the link to the press release. One small correction is was Access/Palmsource which put the release out. It waqs reporteed about everywhere and a huge point of discussion in the threads.

http://www.access.co.jp/english/press/060214.html

Problem is that is a PalmSource (software company)announcement ...... which has nothing to do with Palm, Inc. (hardware company). Palm the hardware company has made no committment to Palm Source teh software company to use ALP>

As can be seen here:

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=107123&page=2&pp=30

Palm, Inc has not "bought into" ALP leading to much speculations as to why some hardware vendors have signed on and Palm, Inc has not.

Here's some people who have signed on or are considering signing on but much has been made about Palm, Inc NOT being one of those.

[gharrod]

No wise man can reason away what a fool believes. So believe what you may read into things but I will promise you that wrong is wrong. It is not my job to convince you of reality.

[surur]

Ouch! Is that a nasty way to say we're right?

Surur

[gharrod]

No, it is a very simple way to say you are dead wrong and are to dense to recognize that you are wrong. But I am through trying to talk sense to you with your nonsensical and argumentative replies. But we are used to that from you Surur.

[surur]

Oh well. And here I thought I was informing you. More's the pity. I'm out too then.

Surur

[samkim]

Access bought PalmSource and Palm has an agreement with them for their operating system. Access is developing a linux back end and Palm devices will have that with a Palm OS look-alike front end. There will be an emulator to run existing Palm OS apps.

If I am wrong please someone correct me. Palm has has press releases on this issue.
You're wrong. Jack and Surur are correct.

Palm has an agreement to license PalmOS. But Palm has never announced that its devices will run Access linux. Your link is consistent with this. And there is no press release that says otherwise.


No wise man can reason away what a fool believes. So believe what you may read into things but I will promise you that wrong is wrong. It is not my job to convince you of reality.No, it is a very simple way to say you are dead wrong and are to dense to recognize that you are wrong. But I am through trying to talk sense to you with your nonsensical and argumentative replies. But we are used to that from you Surur.
If you want to be arrogant, be correct first.

[bigboy650]

You know, it sucks that we can't speculate without coming to this...

From what I've read, Palm has not bought into ALP (and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't)

But all any of us are doing is interpreting what we THINK might happen (albeit some loose interpretation at times.) As a matter of fact, that is about all this forum has done as of late, thanks to a tight-lipped Palm.

Can't we all just get along? :confused: :mad:

[gharrod]

Samkin, what do you call $150 million investment if not a buy in? The contract runs for another 3 years with Access.

[JackNaylorPE]

From what I've read, Palm has not bought into ALP (and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't)

There's hundreds of articles exclaiming that ALP is in trouble if Palm, Inc doesn't buy in. At the 3GSM conference when PS made teh announceemts, the press was kinda shocked that palm, Inc wasn't tehre to join them as MS, Verizon and palm did the joing PR for the 700w.

I don't know if that's necessarily true tho that PS is in trouble as it would put Palm Inc in a branding situation. Consumers could be confused thinking PalmInc devices and PalmSource devcies were the same thing. OTOH, this could all be gamesmanship for the negotiating table.

We know this:

1. Palm, Inc did try to by PalmSource back once Colligan came on as CEO.
2. Colligan said it was a mistake to sell PalmSource.

Maybe PS stock goes down if it can't sign on sufficient partners and then Ed gets his wish. Maybe if they ignore PS long enough they can force a better license fee. maybe they keeping PS in their "back pocket" and are waiting to see what all those Linux engineers they hired can come up with.

Right now is all I can conclude is palm is wisely keeping its options open.

[samkim]

Samkin, what do you call $150 million investment if not a buy in? The contract runs for another 3 years with Access.
Palm has a licensing agreement for Garnet, not ALP.


You said:Access is developing a linux back end and Palm devices will have that with a Palm OS look-alike front end.But Palm has never publicly announced that they will build devices that will run ALP.


But all any of us are doing is interpreting what we THINK might happen (albeit some loose interpretation at times.)Some people are arguing about what has already been announced.

[surur]

Maybe PS stock goes down if it can't sign on sufficient partners and then Ed gets his wish.

PS is a wholly owned subsidiary of Access Co Ltd. Access already has a strong business and good relationships with mobile phone producers, and claim their Netfront browser is in > 200 million devices. Their biggest outside investor is NTT DoCoMo. Somehow I dont think they will come on the auction block anytime soon again. And I also dont think they really need Palm either.

Surur

[JackNaylorPE]

Huge difference between Acess and PalmSource. If MS sells 200 million copies of office, and 500 million copies of Windows, that doesn't necessarily make their x-Box subsidiary profitable. Subsidiaries get bought and sold every day based upon how they perform individually. A wholly owned subsidiary needs to show its parent a profit or it gets sold off. MS's Dominance with Windows hasn't helped it knock off Intuit, Adobe and other players.

When I read the Press Release from 3GSM conference, I was as surprised as the word tech press who all seemed to agree it was quite a "big thing" that Palm, Inc has not signed on. And even big companies can be squeezed at the negotiating table. Look what MS has done in Germany and UK to keep large clients. While they still lost many agencies to Linux, they kept other because all of a sudden they are paying peanuts for Windows after they made the "show" of switching to Linux. So even the giants can be brought to bear with a little negotiating strategy.

[skfny]

I would be fully supportive of a Palm-owned successor to Garnet. Let's face it, it's not like they'll be making devices from the dozens of other Palm manufacturers incompatible - there ARE NOT dozens of other manufacturers.

The fact of the matter is, both Garnet and WM seem to have been spliced together in a half-hearted attempt at an OS. IMO they are both crap. Both are severely lacking and give the impression that no one takes the mobile space seriously yet. I use whichever piece of crap ignores the least of my needs at the time. I'd love to see a third option even though I feel it too may just add to the dungpool.

[JackNaylorPE]

http://www.pikesoft.com/blog/index.php?itemid=60

"Things are getting interesting at Palm Inc., the makers of the Treo smartphones but not (to date) of the operating systems they run on. First, back in November of 2004, there was a source that reported Palm was "exploring partnerships that could let it use a tailored version of the Linux OS to run on its devices". There was some credibility because this was the same source that first leaked Palm's plans to release a Windows Mobile Treo--correctly as we now know. Other rumors of Linux devices from Palm flew about for a while, but there was nothing tangible. Then Palm went through a spate of hiring Linux engineers that seemed to start around the time they lost their bidding war to acquire PalmSource. Most recently there has been a job description posted on Palm's website for a Linux handset engineer that specifically mentions development of "a new software platform." Now I've received confirmation from someone who actually knows what's going on.

The analyst I communicated with by email has been privy to Palm's plans in the past, so I asked if he could confirm my conclusion that Palm is writing their own Linux OS. He did, and they are. He asked not to be named, but here's what he said when I asked what he knew:

We know about it. Palm has stated on several occasions than 80% of their engineers are software engineers, they are perfectly able to design their own operating system and are working on it. I know they had a prototype of a Linux Treo 650. From my discussions with management my impression is that Palm is hedging their OS risk by developing in-house systems as well as keeping relationships with Palmsource and Microsoft. I know that future Palm models will be coming out with both operating sytems in order to test market reaction.

I asked if he knew whether any of the Treos slated for later this year were expected to run Palm's new Linux-based system. He said they would run Windows and Palm OS Garnet and that the "new operating system will be introduced in 2007 (don’t know if fiscal or calendar)."

So there you have it, folks. It seems that we now have not one but two companies working on a successor to the Palm operating system: PalmSource, the company that Palm spun off in 2003 to continue the development of the Palm OS but which was recently acquired by ACCESS; and Palm Inc. itself, which own's the Palm brand and is therefore the only party that can actually name their platform "Palm OS." It's thought that ACCESS, heavily staked by DoCoMo, will be looking largely to Japan and China for its customers. Meanwhile Palm, dominant in the US smartphone market, has been conspicuously quiet about the announcement of the ACCESS Linux Platform in February. Now we know why."

[Perry Holden]

GO PALM !!

[skfny]

At the first sign I see that this will be a REAL multi-tasking OS capable of running native Palm apps, I'm ditching my 6700 and jumping on the 700p bandwagon (I know the 700p will not have this Linux OS, but I'll know my Palm apps have a future).